Sully: *blasé* How lovely.
Duncan: You killed them?
Sully: And I'd do it again.
Duncan: Why?
Sully: The son-of-a-bitch didn't deserve to live.
Duncan: *angry* Because he tried to take your fighter?
Sully: *irritated* No. I would never kill him for that. That's part of the business. He was blackmailing Iris with her brother's life. And you were right. That whole thing with Belcher at the bar was a setup.
Duncan: That's no reason to kill him, even if it is the truth.
Sully: *butter-would-not-melt* Have I ever lied to you before, MacLeod?
Duncan: You lie to everyone all the time. It's like breathing to you.
Sully: About small stuff. Not about something like this, and especially to you. But you don't believe me, go ask Iris. Don't tell her I killed them. I don't think she'd understand.
Duncan: *shaken* And I'm supposed to?
Sully: *outraged* What am I supposed to do?
Duncan: You could have gone to the police. You could have come to me! We could have solved this out.
Sully: *shouts* The guy was scum!
1:12 Eamon: Welcome to Highlander Rewatched, where each and every week we cover a new episode in the Highlander world. This week we're talking about The Fighter.
Keith: That's right. I'm one of your Rewatchers - I'm Keith.
Kyle: This is Kyle.
Eamon: This is Eamon.
Keith: Welcome, yes as Eamon said this week we are talking about season 2 episode 11, The Fighter. This episode was originally aired on Monday January 31st, 1994. So if you remember, for all of those who keep religious track of the episode airing dates, this episode actually airs two months after the last episode we covered. So this is kinda like a mid-season break for them?
Kyle: All my tracking, is religious! Especially package tracking! **Keith: *laughter**
Keith: Although a lot of shows end up doing this sort of this thing. Like, this is - the last episode aired around Thanksgiving. So a lot of shows take off between... the holiday season is off for shows because no one is watching TV, because they're busy stuffing their faces with turkey.
Kyle: Tryptophan!
Keith: *laughter* This episode was directed by Peter Ellis! He has done one other episode previously, which was Studies in Light. Which was the... what, second episode of the season, I think?
Kyle: Yes, with Gregor Clegane.
Keith: That's right. Launchpad McBlaine.
Kyle: Launchpad McBlaine. *laughter*
Keith: Uh he also did some episodes of Silk Stalkings, Hercules, some other episodic TV --
Kyle: The Mountain that Sulks. **Keith: *laughter**
2:26 Keith: This episode was written by Morrie Ruvinsky! This is the first of uh nine episodes he did um, he's got some pretty good ones coming up. So…
Eamon: *sounds interested* Also he wrote for Forever Knight.
Keith: So many Forever Knight - **Eamon: Yeah** connections with this show.
Kyle: *sings* Forever Knight **Keith: *laughter** I wanna be -- **Keith and Kyle** Forever Knight. **Eamon: *laughter**
Keith: Ahh this episode guest stars Cali Timmins as Iris. She did lots of tv, she did the Robocop tv show -- **Eamon: Frasier** - haha, I have it written down in my notes Eamon's favorite show--*with Eamon*--Frasier! *laughter*
Eamon: *sings* Callin' again. *laughter* Also --
Kyle: What do I do with all these tossed salads and scrambled eggs, though?
Eamon: I just don't know --**Keith: Shit!**
Kyle: We're stuck! Mac knew what to do.
Eamon: He did. She was also on an episode of Rin Tin Tin, Canine Cop. And you know, is it a secret how that dog solves mysteries?
Kyle: No it's no secret how that dog solves crimes. **Eamon: *laughter** He actually needs to keep that shit like patented, cause all the crime fighting dogs are gonna ape his scheme.
Eamon: Like Lassie.
Keith: *laughter* Yeah, fuckin' Lassie.
Kyle: Trying to steal my crime-fighting game. **Eamon: That's right.** Yeah, Timmy's in the well, I get it.
Eamon: She was also on TekWar, William Shatner.
Keith: Oooh. Right! *laughter* **Kyle: Shit** **Eamon: William Shitner.** This *laughter* This episode also stars Tom McBeath as Coleman. He's has a ton of IMDb credits. Uh and he also shows up in a later episode of Highlander. I remember him, he was uh, Colonel Harry Maybourne in SG 1. Do you remember this, Kyle?
Kyle: I do. Vividly. **Keith: Yes.** He like starts off as kind of a villain, or like an antagonist, but he's--
Keith: Right. Yeah he's like the big naysayer, he doesn't like the program; Blah Blah Blah…
Kyle: He's--he's part of a secret group that's trying to undermine things, and he ends up--except when he defects and becomes the king of a village.
Keith: Yeah. ** Eamon: Wow ** Weird stuff. But also when I was looking at his IMDb credits, I came across something called Night Man?
Eamon: Yes, that's based off of Malibu comic, **Keith: Is it--? **--from the 90s.
Keith: So this is--
Kyle: Is he the fighter of the DayMan?
Keith: *laughter* Yes. **Eamon: *sings*Uhuhoh!** *laughter* Keith: A different -- a different Night Man, sadly. But a couple weeks ago we were talking about--I think Eamon and I were talking on Revenge of the Sword--** Eamon: Mmmhmm.**--about these sort of Saturday afternoon shows--** Eamon: Yeah **--that we would watch - I remember my mom would watch Baywatch, this was kinda like wrapped up in that. There was the Tropic Thunder--Nope. **Kyle: Nope.**
Eamon: Thunder in Paradise! *laughter**
Keith: --Thunder in Paradise! Thunder in Paradise with the Hulk Hogan show. So they were all--and, oh, un--
Kyle: Beverly Hills Ninja.
Keith: --and uh, what was the other one? Oh, Earth Final Conflict. **Eamon: Yes.** Which got brought up in another episode as well. **Eamon: Mmhmm.** Uh, this was definitely part of that block of programming.**Eamon: Yeah** And I remember this vividly, and this week we will put the opening credits to this show on our Facebook page. It is the best. **Eamon: haha!** So, it's like - the theme song, it's a superhero show. The theme song is like smooth jazz... **Eamon: Oooh!** Off to a great start already, right?
Eamon: Well I believe Night Man was a musician in his alter ego.
Keith: He was. He also drove a - this was like - I think, the same year- do you remember those uh, the Viper car? It was like a purple dragster lookin' thing? **Eamon: Mm, no.** It was a weir--like a crazy car, that became pretty popular. Again it is featured - this is like his superhero car. I hadn't seen Night Man in forever, so I just looked it up on IMDb, and this is the IMDb description of the show, Night Man, which you should ALL check out. And I did not realize, Eamon, that it was based on a comic, though.
Eamon: Yeah. Malibu Comics was short lived. Men in Black was a Malibu comic.
5:39 Keith: Ohhh okay. This is the description: After lightning strikes saxophonist Johnny Domino *laughter* he finds he is telepathically tuned to the frequency of evil. This gives him an edge for fighting the bad guys. And some special class 5 wearable gear gives him an edge for fighting them as well.
Eamon: *sounds confused* What?
Keith: That's it, and his costume isssss crazy. Ah man.
Kyle: I'm picturing a human tuning fork.
Keith: Aw man. It looks like it's just a bunch of plastic pieces from a--**Eamon: Yep.**--a football uniform. **Eamon: It's bad.** And he's got an eye--not an eye patch - he's got like a scope--
Eamon: He's like a red light eye. Yeah.
Keith: Yeah. It's weird.
Kyle: Like Deadshot?
Eamon and Keith: Yeah, yeah yeah yeah.
6:16 Keith: Oh but the theme song... it's ridiculous. So, we'll post that on our Facebook page. This episode also stars Bruce Weitz as Sully. Uh, he was in 255 episodes of General Hospital. And he was also Bruno Mannheim in the Superman animated series? **Eamon: Yeah!** That's great! **Eamon: That's really exciting! Yeah.** Good stuff watch that show.
Eamon: He's on some good episodes. He was leader of Intergang. **Keith: Right!** And later, a cohort of Darkseid.
Kyle: Mmm. He played DeSaad?
Eamon: No, he's a gangster that like Darkseid employs in his little plots on Earth before they reveal --
Keith: Does he get him weapons and stuff?
Eamon: Yeah like all these freaky weapons like the big gloves that have big hands that pop out and beat up Superman. *laughter*
6:57 Keith: It's awesome!
Kyle: The human Hulk hands.
Eamon: Yeah *laughter*
Kyle: Basically, yeah.
Keith: And then as a very small part: uh, Nicholas Lea is Rodney, and he's Krycek from the X-Files. As soon as he was on the screen, I was like Krycek! I was very excited about it.
Eamon: Oh shoot! **Keith: Yeah** Wow.
7:10 Keith: But it's a very small part. So, this is a lovely IMDb episode description for this one. "Duncan's old friend Tommy Sullivan wants Duncan to buy a piece of his fighter George, and help him win pretty Iris."
Kyle: *laughs* That's it?
Keith: That's it.
Kyle: Wow!
Eamon: What? *confused*
Kyle: Suddenly very brief.
Keith: I--in case you guys missed it, I'll read it again: "Duncan's old friend Tommy Sullivan wants Duncan to buy a piece of his fighter George, and help him win pretty Iris."
Eamon: So, no conflict in this episode - he just wants to invest in a boxer and get a girlfriend.
Keith: And get a pretty girlfriend.
Kyle: This entire episode is just about investing. *laughter*
Eamon: Yeah. *laughter*
Keith: The inner workings of--
Kyle: Start with boxers, and then they get to stock tips. Charlie's like "No man, you gotta just be heavily invested in indexes." *laughter*
Eamon: And investing your heart.
7:54 Keith: So we open up in the ring.
Kyle: On a black and white boxing match.
Eamon: Yeah, but this isn't a flashback so why is it in black and white?
Keith: Yeah is it--
Kyle: Is it a flashback? I know, even at the end I was legitimately unsure.
Eamon: I know, I don't know.
Keith: The thing that's weird about it is --
Eamon: Well it's just generic boxing stock footage, right?
Keith: Right, but there's an actual boxing match going on...**Eamon: in the episode.**--in the episode, like right then. Like I guess they didn't have time or money to film the boxing? **Eamon: Yeah** So they're like "Well let's just have a different boxing match play on the tv--**Eamon: Mmhmm**--and you can watch that."
Kyle: Like an old-timey looking one. **Keith: Yeah.** Yeah. I have no idea what that's all about -- why is it like that.
Eamon: Is it like a Raging Bull take off? Cos that was in black and white? I don't know.
Kyle: Did you fuck my wife? *laughter* **Keith: Jesus Christ!** Sorry.
Keith: We hear the buzz, and Sully, who is the trainer of this boxer, is I guess walking out on the arena.
Kyle: He's walking out of the arena with Mike Thunder, or something like that. He just looks like Dolph Lundgren.
Eamon: Oh yeah.
Kyle: This dude is HUGE! He's enormous. Ah--
Eamon: And like chiseled jaw, blonde spikey hair. This guy is right out of a comic book. It's like "I'm a tough guy."
Kyle: Or he might be Paul Phoenix from Tekken. *laughter* **Eamon: Pssht! Yeah. Oh my god *sounds amused*The guy with the six-foot tall High Top.
Eamon: That is a good pull. *amused* I haven't thought of Tekken in maybe five years.
Kyle: *whispers* The King of Iron Fist Tournament! Enter the Tekken! *wheezing laughter* 9:13 That's actually *laughter* just what goes on for the rest of this episode.
Keith: Did anyone see the Tekken movie? Wasn't there a movie?
Kyle: It looked horrible.
Eamon: Oh my God.
Keith: Yeah, I'm sure it looked horrible!
Kyle: I did not see it, but--
Eamon: There's also an awful 45-minute Tekken animated movie from Japan, **Kyle: Perfect.**--which is one of the worst things E-VER. *laughter*
Kyle: It has the ogre in it. Is the ogre good? Or the fighting bear? I assume the fighting bear--
Eamon: The kangaroo's in it! **Kyle: Oooh.** Yeah. **Good.** Yep.
Kyle: How about Gon, the little dinosaur?
Eamon: No, unfortunately. Gon is amazing.
Kyle: He is kind of the best.
Eamon: He's a comic book character. Anyway...
9:46 Keith: So! Tekken Rewatched! Ma--**Kyle: Eddy Gordo!** Mac joins what turns out to be his friend Sully, and, you know, I guess he's there watching the fight. Him and Charlie, I guess, came to the fight, right?
Eamon: Yeah. He and Charlie were at the ring.
Keith: Yeah. So--**Eamon: *whispers* At the ring?** Ringside seats! **Eamon: That's right.** So, they go into the locker room and George, the fighter--
Kyle: Oh, sorry. Did I say his name was Mike, earlier? It's Georgie. *laughter* It's Georgie. I don't know why I said that.
Keith: So, George is approached by these two goons. One is named Coleman, and what's the other guy's name? I don't know.
Kyle: Sully!
Keith: Nope.
Kyle: No. He's Sully. Uh--
Keith: It's Coleman and some other guy. Doesn't matter. I'll just call him the Goon for the rest of the episode. So, I guess these guys have been really pestering Sully and George, and they're trying to take over, and be his manager. Cos they've got some dough.
Eamon: So these are like mobsters or something, right?
Keith: Right.
Kyle: This is interrupted because then the fighter from the ring comes out and he's like "How much you pay 'em to stop the fight?!" and a massive brawl erupts. And I don't know what happened, but it does not look like the two mobsters, who I've named Bulk and Skull, *laughter*--they're just Bulk and Skull, that is who they're referred to throughout my notes--are just clearly not on-set, any more. Like, they must have been dismissed, because then it just keeps cutting to their reaction shots--
Eamon: Of them like standing aside--
Kyle: --of them like pointing and going "heeheeheehee, hoohoohoohoo, hahahah!"
Eamon: Also, we need to talk about something Coleman says, before we get too far away. "Oh he's white, and he can punch like Hell."
Kyle: Yeah. It's like one of these weird Great White Hope things that I didn't think were still a part of boxing at this point, but maybe they are. *thoughtful hmms*
Keith: Maybe boxing is more racist than I thought...
Eamon: Maybe. *burst of laughter*
Kyle: Ya never know. I'm not that hip on boxing.
11:26 Keith: Mac helps break up the fight, so does Charlie. So, we're back in the locker room. These guys are trying to get George to... switch over. I guess Mac tells 'em to leave 'im alone? And I love the way this all goes down. Coleman is like "Yo, you should join up with us!" or whatever. And Mac is just like "He said he's not interested!" And then, thirty seconds of silence! And he's like, "Who are you?" And then MORE silence! And it's just like, "What?" Duncan isn't threatening or anything, but then Coleman is scared. He backs off and [says] "Alright, man. I--"
Eamon: Well Mac gives him a look.
Keith: That's that look! The Mac Look!
Kyle: He gives him that Mac Look.
Keith: Mac Eyes.
Eamon: The Mac Eyes.
Kyle: *sings* Behind Mac eyes! *laughter*
Eamon: Well, also Charlie leaves at this point because he has a date with Helen. Keith: Yeah. **Kyle: Mmhmm!** They mention this woman's name a LOT during this episode, for no reason, cos she's not a character. I thought that was weird.
Keith: We barely see Helen. So I guess that's maybe why they have to say her name all the time!
Eamon: Why can't you just say I'm going on a date?
Keith: Yup! Well, if they said that, we'd be making fun of that so much. We'd be "Oh, this vague plans Charlie has. 'I have A DATE!'"
Eamon: He [says] "I'm going on a date..."
Kyle: No, I wouldn't tease that.
Eamon: "...with HELEN." I'm like, "Oh, I guess this Helen's gonna be a character."
Kyle: If somebody left saying they've got a date, seeya, that's fine. **Eamon: Sure.** I mean, maybe you'd ask them for more details, but if you didn't, that's a perfectly normal way to introduce the concept that you have to leave. **Keith: Right.** **Eamon: Yeah.** You don't have to go "Oh, I met her on OKCupid, and her favorite thing is waterfalls cos she's a weirdo--
Eamon: She won't stop chasing them.
Kyle: That's not going to be the conversation! **Eamon: Yeah.** **Keith: SO--** 12:55 In any case, Sully is trying to convince Mac to, I think for 30 Gs, get 10% of Mike's take.
Keith: So, they decide to go out and--
Kyle: George. George George.
Keith: Why are you calling him Mike?! *teases*
Eamon: Magic Mike?
Keith: So, they all go out to a bar, and I guess Coleman... it turns out Coleman owns this bar. **Eamon: Right.** This is just a weird bit of writing, I thought. So, Coleman goes into the bar first, and he yells to somebody in the bar, he [yells] "'Ey, Georgie! Hi, you're ugly as ever!" He playfully jabbing at somebody. **Eamon: Yeah.** This is not George from the--like the boxing George!
Kyle: Yeah, it's somebody else.
Keith: They've put another George-character into this scene, off-screen, and it's like "Why are you calling atten--WHY is his name George?" **Eamon: Yeah.**
Kyle: Th--ugh! The way they reuse names, cos the episode we just did was called Epitaph for Tommy. **Keith: Uh-huh.** The... Mac's buddy in this is TOMMY Sullivan! This is like the names just... it's like they have six names and pick them out of a hat every time!
Eamon: *laughter* A dartboard.
Keith: It wouldn't have surprised me if his name was Georgie Honniger. *laughter* Who is another character from last week's episode. For our listeners at home.
Eamon: Georgie MacLeod. *laughter*
14:04 Keith: So, at this point we're introduced to Rodney. And, this is Krycek from the X-Files, and he's like a real bar-bum. He's all disheveled, he looks like shit. I guess he's trying to get a drink, but he has no money to pay for it. And he can get food on a tab, which is his sister, Iris, who's a waitress at this bar.
Kyle: The bar called The Dugout!
Eamon: The Dugout, right!
Kyle: As soon as I read that, I was like, this seems like a baseball-themed strip-club, so...! *laughter* That Eamon will be opening soon! **Eamon: Ooooh!** So, Iris then comes up and... and wants to talk to Sully. And we quickly reveal why they are here.
Keith: Yeah. So, the reason that Sully likes to come to this bar, even though it's owned by the douchebag Coleman, is because-- **Kyle: Bulk.** Bulk. Is because... because he is in love with Iris. **Eamon: Yeah.** And the introduction to him being in love with her is awesome! Like--**Kyle: Oh God.**--it's in slow-motion, they play really gushy love music, there's Vaseline all over the lens... *laughter* It's great.
Kyle: I'm a guy's guy. I'm good with guys! He loves--Sully's all about the guys.
Keith: Yeah, but he... he cannot talk to Iris. **Eamon: Nope.** He stammers all over himself. There's a really funny scene... I guess Iris is impressed that he broke up this fight. "I heard Georgie was attacked, and you took on twelve guys all by yourself!" And Duncan goes to interrupt, and he [says] "Oh well, it wasn't really--" and he gets a nut-kick. *snickers* Sully's like "Shutup, man! I'm trying to impress the ladies!" I don't know, it's pretty funny.
Eamon: And she's pawing at him 'n stuff. **Keith: Yeah!**
Kyle: She does seem kind of interested in him, despite him being twice her age.
Keith: He is an older gentleman, yes.
Kyle: I'm like... also he's Immortal, so he's ten times her age--**Eamon: *laughs* Yeah.** But that being said, his physical appearance is more than twice her age.
Keith: Yeah, he's not like Mac. He's not like a thirty-two year old dude, or whatever.
Kyle: Yeah, like he lost the Immortal lottery, like he is definitely not in his prime... when he has his first death, which is super-crappy, I suppose, cos like, this girl should just not want to date him. Like, he could be her father. **Eamon: Yeah.**
Keith: I'm not about to tell anybody who... or who they can't date--
Eamon: Who or who...
Keith: *laughs* Is that what I just said?
Eamon: Yep!
Kyle: I mean, I'll tell 'em WHO to date, but not WHO to date. *much laughter* Cindy Lou Who?
Keith: *facepalm?* Oh, God, guys! *others laugh Keith uncovers his face* Oh, it's very hot in the studio today. We are sweating.
Kyle: We are taking off all our clothes, in accordance with the Sean Paul song...
16:25 Keith: At this point we get an amazing flashback, to the 1890s. I wasn't exactly sure where they were, ever. The Watcher Chronicles say this is San Francisco. **Eamon: Ooh!** We are in San Francisco, the 1890s, and Sully busts in to Mac's hotel room. Aaand, I guess he wants him to invest in a fight? Or he wants him to BE a fighter.
Eamon: He wants him to be in a fight.
Keith: Right. So--
Kyle: Some big-deal boxer has a deal going: if you last three rounds, you get a thousand bucks. **Keith: Right.** And he wants Mac to be that guy.
Keith: And so, a thousand dollars... I looked up the inflation rate of that. That's twenty-six thousand dollars. **Kyle: BUH!** Yeah, it's a lot of money. **Eamon: Hoo, boy.** So, what happens next is amazing. We get some... this is so cartoonish, it's... FANtastic!
17:07 Sully: *nearly hyperventilating* They got this guy... to pay a thousand dollars to any man who can go three rounds with him.
Duncan: *calmly* Good luck, Sully. Pound for pound, you're one of the best bare-knuckle fighters around.
Sully: *seriously* No, that's the problem--not enough pounds. They say I'm too small to fight a heavyweight, *slyly* so... you got to do it for me.
Woman: *exclaims* No!
Sully: *panics* Alalagao
17:26 Rewatchers: *laughing*
Keith: The stammering! Alagalalo! So, Duncan was getting a B-jer, like under--
Kyle: *gleeful* I don't know if that's necessarily true. She was just under the covers, hiding!
Keith: Doing... WHAT?! Hiding?! Wha--
Kyle: Well what if it's like a stranger, a stranger's in the room!
Eamon: They were playing a prank on Sully, probably.
Keith: No no no, let's break this down! Sully, Sully busts in! **Eamon: Yeah.** He does not knock--
Kyle: In the context of the scene, there is a visual obstruction between the door and... where Mac is. There's like a covering--
Keith: So you think when he busts in--
Kyle: --she hides under the covers.
Keith: --hides--
Kyle: Under the covers, and then when she fears that Mac is gonna get the crap kicked out of him by a large pony-tail man, that we find out is gonna happen later, she's like "No, don't do it!"
Keith: *moment of silence* I think she's sucking his dick. *loud laughter*
Eamon: Oh, boy. **Kyle: Eeew!** When Sully sees her pop out from under the covers, he's like "G-g-gg-g-g-g-ghost!" He's like Shaggy from Scooby-Doo! And he hides behind a... what are those things called? The curtain...
Kyle: They're like a little partition-thing.
18:28 Keith: So, Sully goes and hides behind this partition, and then Mac and this girl just start making out mo--they just make out in front of him, and it's like "You can stay, or you can go." They're getting down to business, whether Sully wants to watch or not!
Eamon: Yeah, Sully like runs out of there. *laughter*
18:43 🎶 Princes of the Universe! 🎶
Keith: Hey, Rewatchers, thanks for joining us! This week on Highlander Rewatched, make sure to follow us along on Facebook, and definitely subscribe and leave us a review on iTunes and guess what? If you're an Android user, you can also subscribe on Stitcher, and guess what we're on Google Play now! So check us out on Google Play! Any way you want to get us, we're there! OH YEAH!
🎶 Princes of the Universe! 🎶
19:12 Keith: So, back in the present. Sully thinks this girl Iris is... this is The One. And at this point I'm liKeith: This is like Hitch. I am so onboard this episode, I'm like, this is so much fun! Hah hah!
Kyle: Fair enough!
Keith: Alright! Hahah
Eamon: Ha ha ha.
Keith: heehee Nice fake laughing!
Kyle: Seriously--
Eamon:? HA HA HA!
Kyle: But he [says] "You gotta give me... give me hints! How can I be with this girl?" And my note is just: I don't know. Be younger and more handsome, and be able to put--*laughter*--be able to put a sentence together? **Keith: *hisses* Jesus!** I don't know!
Eamon: This is a--
Kyle: Just like it's no secret how Rin Tin Tin, Canine Cop, fights crime, it's no secret why this girl is not interested in him.
Eamon: Right.
Kyle: It's cos he hasn't completed a full sentence in her presence.
Eamon: Nope. Cyrano de BergeMac. *wheezelaugh*
19:54 Keith: Ah, so we get another quick flashback to the past, and Duncan eventually accepts this, I guess, challenge to fight the boxer Brock.
Eamon: After Brock hits him in the face.
Kyle:***** On the street!
Keith: Yeah. Like he makes fun of--Yeah.
Kyle: Yeah. Also, like the way he--Sully finally reveals who he has to fight, and it's Joe Brock. And the way he responds is *low shock* "Joe... Brock?! ... Joe mother-fucking BROCK?!" *laughter*--is the context of, well not the context. But it's... how he says it.
Keith: Right. So they get in a little street brawl, and then Mac is like "I'm down. We're gonna fight now. It's personal. This shit's personal, now!"
Eamon: The costumes, and the setting of this flashback is amazing!
Keith: It's great!
Kyle: Mac's suit that he's wearing during this thing, is crazy! He's got the super-high vest on, it's wild.
Eamon: Yeah. This is great! I think this might be the best flashback, yet. Just in terms of, it looks great! I totally buy it.
Keith: Spoiler alert! I think this is the best episode, yet.
Eamon: OOoooh!
Keith: I love this episode. I think it's fantastic! **Kyle: Ahowyuu!** At least this season!
Kyle: You're smiling like a small child!
Keith: I love this episode! I'm onboard this episode, every step of the way!
Eamon: Onboard. Also, the manager for Joe Brock calls Sully a Tough Little Mick.
Kyle: *snort* Yes! Hahahahahah!
Eamon: I am personally offended by that remark.
21:06 Keith: Uh, So back in the present, I guess Coleman is still trying to get George to sign over with him. So, Mac and Sully go to break this up. It's like "No, he said no. No means no."
Kyle: And George is--speaking of no means no, Georgie is flanked by two women, and is like, "Aye!" and they say something like "Whatever our fighter wants, our fighter gets."
Eamon: Yeah.
Kyle: It's like... waaagyaaa
Keith: Gross.
Eamon: Gyew.
21:27 Keith: So, then it takes a dark turn. Once Coleman leaves, Sully [growls] "I'm gonna kill that s.o.b." **Eamon: Yeah!** And it's like, "Whoa, buddy!"
Eamon: It's a closeup on his face, and "I think I'll kill that son of a bitch!" *wheezelaugh* And he turns over to Mac and he's like Hahah, just kidding! *laughter* psych!
21:45 Eamon: Now we're training in the dojo!
Keith: In the dojo! And, so--
Eamon: Going to the dojo...
Keith: So, Sully [asks] "You gotta help me out with this girl-stuff." He's like, "Teach me poetry and shit. *laughter* You know, that stuff girls like!"
Kyle: Yeah, I don't think Sully's ever SEEN a girl. *laughter*
Eamon: Yeah. Sully hasn't gone on a date in hundreds of years. *laughter* **Kyle: Apparently.**
22:03 Keith: So, can we talk about... so, Charlie walks in. With Helen.
Kyle: With Heleeeeen!
Keith: So I guess he maybe spent the night with Helen.
Eamon: *yawning* uu-uu! (Mmhmm in yawn-speak)
Keith: Coming in in the morning. Uh--
Eamon: That's right.
Keith: So we get treated to--
Kyle: And she's in, like a night--she's in a going-out dress.
Keith: Oooooh,yes!
Eamon: A cocktail dress.
Kyle: --and Charlie's in his standard jeans with a flannel shirt and a varsity jacket.
22:20 Keith: Right! So, Duncan and Sully are like, hubba-hubba! And they're just checking her out. And let's play a clip of this music that accompanies--
Eamon: Yeah!
Kyle: All I'm saying is it's A Body So Fine At the Man's Baritone Sax." *laughter*
22:33 *Entrance to Dojo, Charlie, hands on waist of lovely woman in green dress and 2" heels. Mac and Sully stare, Charlie's hands do not stray much as they kiss tenderly. They part, and she shyly offers him a bouquet. Sully's mouth drops open.*
*laughter* *Keith sings with music* Bom, Ba ba ba bamba ba baa bow Da Blues!
22:44 Sully looks to Mac, who is subconsciously rubbing his stubble. "Did you get a look at that woman?" **Keith: Wow!**
Mac: Yeah, her name's Helen. *slides away, all mischief, to intercept* "Charlie! Hey--"
22:48 Keith: HAHAH!
Eamon: Can we talk about the gloves Mac was wearing? *laughter*
Keith: Yes! Tell us about them, Eamon!
Eamon: Like fingerless leather gloves!
Kyle: For training. He's gotta protect those knucks! **Eamon: Yup.** *laughter*
Keith: I love that music. Byar, ba-dam-ba-dam *Kyle joins* ba-bwa-bwa-bwa ba. *just Keith sings gruffly* Send in the Blues. Sexy woman in a green dress named Helen--*normal voice*--another name-drop for no reason. *laughter*
Kyle: So, it comes out that she bought him flowers... *amused*
Eamon: She bought Charlie some flowers.
Keith: Right. And Sully's like "How'd you get her to buy her flowers, man?!" *self-corrects* "Buy you flowers!" and Charlie gets all bashful, and he's like, "Aw man," I know what you fucking did! Going downtown!
Eamon: Oh-ho!
Kyle: *****Holy cow, man!
Eamon: Charlie's gonna take up Mac's role as Cyrano, here, and try to give Sully some pointers...
Keith: Can we--shall we play, I love this clip as well. There's so many good clips in this episode, of them having this kind of comic little repartee back and forth!
23:42 Charlie: *embarrassed* Yes, MacLeod, she gave me flowers.
Sully: *admiring* Really? How did you get her to give you flowers?
Charlie: *grinning awkwardly* Oh, come on, man.
DM: *conspiratorially* Charlie, Sully's got this little problem, and you're just the guy to help him out. *pure innocence*
Charlie: *suspiciously looking from Mac to Sully and back* What kind of a problem?
DM: *butter-would-not-melt-in-my-mouth* *looks to Sully* Well, you saw it for yourself. The guy's a master. *Sully is nodding, Charlie is wary.*
Sully: *from the heart* There's this girl I know. I like her very much... **Keith laughs**
Charlie: *understanding and leering a little* But you want to...
Sully: *innocently*--Talk to her.
Charlie: *checking to be sure* And you want to get...
Sully: *still innocent*--Next to her.
Charlie: *searching for reason to leer* So you can...
Sully: *pleased* Enough said. You're the man for the job.
24:08 Keith: This is--this--
Eamon: Bwa bwa bwaa. Sully's got this "little" problem. *laughter* Hmm! But it's--it's how you use it.
Keith: That's what they say!
Eamon: That's right. *wheezelaugh* Jesus.
Kyle: Guuuh!
Keith: I love that this is like a little of [a] vaudeville act, or something.
Kyle: Yeah. Who's on first?! *laughter* So, at this point in my notes I just wrote: hm. Has Richie not been in the show much just cos Charlie and Mac have way better chemistry? *******someone pbpbpbp**
Keith: There's--there--he is really not on the show that much, and there's a--I forget the reason for it. I don't remember if they wanted to train him... that might have been it... I don't know. Somebody out there who maybe knows the story, write us in and let us what the reason was Richie is not in Season Two that much.
Kyle: Yeah, it's weird but all the bro-down ho-down stuff is ALL with Charlie, now. And they--and the two of them play off each other really well. And, I mean, Charlie does a great job. I--I don't know. I really like him.
Keith: It's just an odd move. The show makes Richie Immortal, and there's momentum behind that, to take the show in a good direction, **Kyle: *****And they just ass--!** and they just don't do it. It's like "Oh, whatever. We'll just let that kind of lie." Alright.
Eamon: Well, the other weird thing is Charlie doesn't know Mac's Immortal, so he doesn't have that weird sounding-board that he did with Richie and Tess.
Kyle: Yeah, he's literally just his buddy.
25:23 Keith: Yeah. So, we get a flashback, back to the 1890s and it's boxing time! The Match!
Eamon: Yeah, they're bare-knuckle boxing!
Keith: I love the way all of this is shot. Again, great setting, great costumes, tons of extras! **Eamon: Yup.** Good stuff!
Eamon: It's good.
Kyle: The cut was straight in to Mac getting head-butted, basically!
Keith: Yeah! And it's a full-on box--we spend some time on this boxing match!
Kyle: Yeah. It's long.
Eamon: It is very long, yeah.
Kyle: And it's the super-cheesy old-school boxing. *barker-voce* "Eaaah, put up your dukes! Put up your dukes!" *laughter*
25:50 Keith: So, I guess the bet is that Duncan doesn't have to WIN, he just has to go the distance.
Eamon: Last three rounds or whatever.
Keith: Three rounds, right. Duncan last the whole time. The bell rings, but as the bell rings, **Eamon: The cops show up!**--the cops show up, and they break up this illegal boxing match. So, everybody's running everywhere. People start fighting each other *laughter* it just gets crazy!
Kyle: Except Mac! He decides to finish... FINISH HIM!
Keith: Well I think--does Brock mess with him some more?
Eamon: Brock messes with him more. **Keith: Yeah.** He gives him a coup de grâce. **Keith: Right.** And then Duncan's like "Enough of this."
Kyle: A cooz de gracie!
Eamon: Yes, that's right.
Keith: So, Mac ends up actually knocking Brock out. **Eamon: Yeah!** So, woohoo!
Kyle: Yeah!
26:27 🎶 Princes of the Universe! 🎶
Keith-Randy: I had so much fun on the last episode, Macho-Man Randy Savage is back to talk about sweet items in the Highlander Official Catalogue! Wander through the ages in the official Highlander coat! For the Highlander fan, this is the Ultimate Prize! Expertly constructed, full-length coat is totally eye-catching. It will be the laa--it will last an eternity! **Keith: Hahah!** Ruggedly built of double-yarn, oilskin fabric, to be fully storm-proof and weather-tight, complete with twill lining: This coat is perfect for concealing your quote-unquote "sword" during those late-night escapades!
Kyle: Whaaaat?
Eamon: Does it SAY that?
Kyle-Randy: It does! This was implying that you should be wearing this coat with no clothes on!
Kyle: *laughing* Are you an exhibitionist in the Highlander Universe?
Keith-Randy: Oh yeah! This coat only costs $225.00!
Kyle: Oh my God! Yowza!
Keith: Wow, Macho Man. That's a really nice Coat.
Keith-Randy: You're right, it is!
*Background music is [Keith Scott - "Looking for the One"] Sometimes you're walking through the shadows at night Your eyes are open but you can't see the light. You'll get a feeling, that something is around. You try to move, but you're stuck to the ground Oooooh, yeah. Spinning around, {burn and go down} Oooh, yeah. Always the same feeling again. Playing that game, never the same. Out in the night--*
🎶 Princes of the Universe! 🎶
27:43 Eamon: So Charlie and Sully are going through these dating scenarios and Sully can't memorize it.
Kyle: They're doing some--
Keith: Right, but the scenario is just like "Would you like to see a menu?" and Sully's like "Uh, uhbl-bl-bl-uh!"
Kyle: Can you order menus at restaurants? They're doing some light role-playing. **Eamon: Yeah.** They're gonna transition into some heavy LARPing after this. *laughter* Charlie's just going to yell Lightning Bolt! and peg 'im with a tennis ball. *laughter*
Eamon: And at one point, Charlie says to Sully, "Just talk to her like she's one of the guys."
Keith: And Sully's like "Gross, man!"
Kyle:?***** *Sully Voce* "That's disgusting!" It's like no, just... be cool, Sully. **Eamon: Yeah.**
Keith: What's Sully talking about with the guys?
Eamon: I don't--ew ah-ooh-
Keith: Um... *coughcough*
Eamon: Also, this has been going on for FOUR hours.
Kyle: Yeah, as we come to find out.
Eamon: Once they're back at the dojo.
Keith: They arrive back, and I guess Mac in concerned that--
Eamon: Sully's taken too much time getting his groove back to train...
Kyle: *quietly* Sully gets his groove back. *laughter* Bwa-babwa-ba-bwa *together*-bwa-bwa-bow-dow. *alone* Sully's groove.
Eamon: So it feels like Georgie's gonna slip through his fingers if he doesn't pay a little bit more attention. Cos also he was supposed to meet Georgie and he didn't. He, you know, blew 'im off.
Kyle: Yeah, blew 'im off and Georgie ended up having to leave.
Eamon: Yeah.
29:00 Keith: So, in the next scene... we're gonna play a little game here, guys, alright? *oooh!* And the game--you can all play along with us, out there in podcast land. What are Charlie and Mac doing right now?
Charlie: Gah, yah! Mac: AAAAAAAH! Come on, Charlie! Charlie: AAAH! Yeah hah! *pantpant* Ah, man. *pantpant* Mac: Come on, let's run it off.
*laughter*
Ke: *still laughing* Anybody, care to guess what they--anyone know what they were doing?
Ky: I mean, we just watched the clip. They're jogging.
Ke: Oh, okay!
Ky: Good... good gravy!
Ke: AAaah. Come. It'll come. *laughter*
Ky?: Jesus. Ke?: I love these clips!
Eamon: So they're... they're going for a little jog.
Ke: And this entire scene, this entire five minutes is not in the American version.
Ky: So, they get to talking about how... who their heroes were, and who they wanted to be like, growing up.
Ke: Charlie's hero is Cassius Clay.
Ky: The recently departed Muhammad Ali. We're actually recording this the day of his death.
Ke: Yes, we are.
Ky: So, R.I.P. Charlie DeSalvo feels it more keenly than most.
Ea: And Mac's was Connor MacLeod.
Ke: Yeah, I like this exchange they have. **Ea: It's pretty cool.** Charlie's like "Oh, who's that?" Mac's like, "Well, he's a... distant relative, I guess. He was a great warrior." And Charlie's like, "Oh, like in the Service?" **Ea: Yeah.** He's like "Kind of." It's pretty good. I like the reference to Connor. Bringing that stuff up is great.
*****Ea: *Connor voce* Same clan, different vintage. Heh-heh-heh-heh.
30:31 Ke: So, they're heading back to the bar to meet up with Sully, or Charlie's gotta go there, go to Dugouts!
Ky: This is their first chance to take this stuff into the REAL world!
Ke: Right!
Ea: That's right!
Ky: They been workshopping it!
Ke: So, so they even practice a little bit when they get there. "Remember what you're gonna say," and, and Sully [says] "I'm gonna be like: it's a pleasure to see you, I'd love to see a menu..." Right? And then the whole thing gets blown up because Iris comes over and she [says] "Oh, Sully! Nice to see you! Do you want to see a menu?" and he's like "I don't know what to SAY! Wbuwaoowa!"
Ky: And he's like... what he comes up with, "You probably want to get us anything." *laughter*
Ke: Uh, she goes to get them I guess menus, or whatever, and she is approached by one of the goons, and he whispers something in her ear, and she goes upstairs... and they get a new waitress, who [says] "Oh, Iris got sick. She's not gonna be your waitress anymore." It's like, what is this?
Ky: Yeah. Though, on her way up she encounters the brother, he's like "You're doing this for ME," and I was like: Oh, this is unseemly, whatever's about to happen.
Ea: Yup. And Georgie's up there.
Ke: Yeah, so Sully's like "What's going on with Iris? I'm gonna go check it out." So he goes upstairs, and he sees Iris making out with George.
Ky: Smooching with Georgie. "You were here last night too, wasn't ya? And you were smoochin' with my brother!" *laughter* "You been smoochin' with everybody!" *Keith laughs* "Cheeks! Bony Bab! Cliff! I could go on forever, baby!" *silence* No? No one? Okay.
Ke: I'm fully onboard this.
Ea: Ya filthy animal!
Ky: I would see that movie. **Ke: Oh yeah!** If they made the fake--is it like basically a fake James Cagney movie, is that what that's supposed to be? **Ea: Yeah.** All onboard. Home Alone Rewatched! *laughter*
Ke: Home Alonelander. Homalo--What did we say it was?
Ky: Homolander?
Ke: Homolander...?
Ea: That doesn't sound right.
Ke: That does not sound good, does it. Homolander? Yikes!
Ky: Zeist!
32:21 Ke: So, Sully, like, flips his lid. He loses his top.
Ky: Yeah. He goes apeshit on Georgie.
Ea: He obliterates this guy.
Ky: He throws him down the steps like--
Ke: And I guess we should preface this with, I guess there's a little scene where we see Coleman... the asshole... tell Iris that she's got to do this.
Ea: "Look. You be nice." It's really creepy.
Ke: *serious* It's gross. Yeah. Fuck Coleman. *vehement* So, Sully throws George down the stairs. This is really rough. **Ea: Yeah. Intense.** There's a huge brawl, and I guess they both go their separate ways.
Ky: And--you said he went apeshit. He's literally on top of him, not just punching him, literally flailing like a gorilla! Actually like an ape!
Ke: And Krychek actually threatens Coleman at this point. He goes over to him and he's like "What you did isn't right! You can't use people like this!" And Coleman's just like "What's are you gonna do about it?" and he kind of leaves with his tail between his legs.
Ea: "What are you gonna do?" Yeah.
Ke: There's this weird B plot with this Krychek character that is there, but ne--we don't know any--I don't know. It's really under-developed.
Ky: He ends up just--I'm guessing they--there's an earlier draft of this where it was more important, cos it ultimately only ends up being there as a way to give them leverage over Iris.
Ke: Right. Cos this scene sticks out like a sore thumb. It's like this scene should not be in this episode. *chuckle*
Ky: "Bring Rodney a drink! I thinks he needs a shot of courage!" *laughter* --says Bulk and/or Skull.
33:41 Ke: So, Coleman leaves the bar, and he goes to enter his car and his bodyguard, this goon guy--we've just been referring to [this guy as] Skull--**Ea: Skull.**--he's Skull or Bulk. **Ky: He's Skull.** Okay, good. Uh, he is dead in the driver's seat, and then--
Ky: Cos Sully got Skully! *together* UH OHHHHHH!
Ea: And then it just cuts, and we're at--
Ky: Dolf Lundgren's house.
Ea: Yeah. With Mac and Sully. They're going to kind of clear the air.
Ke: Yeah, so they go in to apologize. They're reluctant to kind of make amends at first. I've a note here that this just sounds like an abusive spouse. It's like "I lost my temper the one time, it'll never happen again! I promise! I--" And Duncan's like "He just had too much to drink." "Yeah, he had too much to drink. It's okay. He loves you! He just had too much to drink!"
Ky: Baby I love you more than you know, I only hit you because I love you." *pained laughter*
Ea: Why is Mac enabling this?
Ky: Mac knows that it was a setup, somehow. I'm not a hundred percent clear on HOW he knows this, but he does. **Ke: Right.** I don't know that he has a reasonable basis for thinking that.
Ke: At this point, no. We do find out later--I guess Iris maybe tells George it WAS a setup, "I was told to kiss you," **Yeah, yeah.** And George is like, "I would never have done that it if I knew you had a thing for her, or whatever, so...
Ky: They hug it out. Sully and Paul Phoenix get in there--
Ea: Yeah. *laugh* They hug it out. Be...
Ky: It could also be Guile. Why not? There's so many people he could be. But Mac is immediately suspicious when he hears that Bulk and Skull are dead. He's immediately thinking that Sully had something to do with it. **Ke: Right.** I don't know. I thought this was gonna be a misdirect and it was actually Rodney, cos Rodney had kind of threatened him. **Ke: Ohhh!**
Ea: Yeah, that's what I thought, too.
Ky: I thought that's where it was gonna go. No!
Ke: That does make sense. That would be--**Ky: Maybe not!**--a good twist to this, actually.
Ky: It would be a good twist. Like maybe he confronts Sully about it and is wrong, **Ke: Hmm! I like that.** --and things go from there... But no. He confronts Sully about it, and Sully just... spills the beans!
Ea: Right. We find out through--
Ky: Wo-oh! First there's a flashback, yeah!
Ea: --flashback, yeah, that after the Bareknuckle Brawl, the guy who Sully had the bet with--**Kyle: Wilson!** Yeah. --refused to pay him. He said "No, you didn't hear the ring of the fight officiator. You heard the bell on the police wagon!" or whatever.
35:47Ke: Right. And Sully seems drunk also, at this point.
Ea: Yeah. Yeah, and Wilson winds up dead.
Ke: And so he gives Mac his share of the money--
Ky: His body's in the river.
Ea: Right.
Ke: Yeah, so he gives Mac the money and a bottle of whiskey... He [says] "Oh, we should celebrate." And Mac [says] "Wow. Weird that he's dead now," and Tully's just like, "Oh! Good thing for me he pays his debts." Uh-oh.
Ky: And then he gleefully drinks to this dead asshole.
Ea: So then Mac and Sully kind of have a pretty serious confrontation about this where, as Kyle said, Sully confesses to murdering--**Ke: Right away!**--two people.
Ke: And it's like he doesn't feel any remorse about this, because he [says] "These people were terrible, terrible assholes."
Ea: But he says he murdered them because of the blackmail with Iris. Not because of a personal vendetta.
Ke: So Mac... they get in this huge fight. Mac seems really hurt by this whole thing. His trust has been completely betrayed by Sully.
Ky: Couple of murders will do that.
Ke: Yeah, so... he... Mac goes to Dugouts to kind of investigate, and he asks Iris what the deal was, and she [says] "Yeah, I'm glad he's dead. Everyone in this bar is glad Coleman is dead. The guy who killed him should get a medal." **Ea: Yeah.** So everyone is very pleased that this has all gone down the way it has. Back at the dojo, Charlie I guess has gotten some sort of certified letter? **Ea: Mmhmm.** ... For Mac. The letter says that George is switching managers. He's going to go with... Coleman?
Ea: No. I think he's just changing managers.
Ke: Just with someone else? Yeah, I guess it's not Coleman.
Ky: Yet another...
Ke: Yet another third party that we've never seen.
Ky: Yeah, which is an odd twist to have happen.
Ke: Right. I guess this clue's Mac off that, uh-oh, maybe George isn't safe. Cos also, I guess in an earlier clip, Sully talked about loyalty. That's something that gets brought up a number of times in this episode. It's like loyalty is like... He [says] "You show me a man that's loyal, I'll show you a king." Loyalty seems to be everything to Sully.
Ky: Thisssss bit strikes me as added.
Ke: Back in the apartment here?
Ky: Yeah. So...:
Ke: So what happens next, Kyle?
37:38 Ky: So, Mac goes to the apartment, and lo... he meets a dead Georgie. Shortly--like immediately after learning that he switched managers. My feeling, from this, was -- cos, spoiler alert, he's about to have a final confrontation with Sully -- I think they were uncomfortable with the moral ambiguity of him fighting Sully over the dead Bulk and Skull. So they needed Sully to do something objectively terrible to justify the conflict. Because this comes out of left field for me. **Ke: Yeah!** The last time we saw these two characters together, they were hugging it out. And this time, he's dead. And it doesn't--
Ke: And the way that he would find out was through a certified letter? You'd think Georgie would just sit down with Sully and [say] "Look, I'm sorry. It's time."
Ea: Well, the letter might just be how Mac found out. But, you know, Georgie might have met--**Ke: OH!**--with Sully and been like "Hey listen. I'm going with somebody else," and then--
Ky: Cos you're a ba--
Ke: That is true.
Ky: ---You're a bad manager!
Ke: No, that is true, because Mac only owns 10%. Cos the letter is like "Oh, they bought my 10%". Or whatever.
Ky: Also, how'd they buy it? Wouldn't HE have to sell it? **Ke: Yeah!** I'm just sayin'!
Ea: I think the letter was offering to buy his 10%. I don't think they said he bought it.
Ke: I don't remember. I thought it said it bought it. **Ky: It doesn't... tha--** Nah, it doesn't matter. George is done with Sully.
Ky: Anyways, my guess is they had a draft of this, and there was a long fight about it, cos it just feels unnatural.
Ke: Yeah, that's a good point. Interesting.
Ky: Cos also at this ****bit, Sully just is a villain. **Ke: Right.** **Ea: Right.** He goes into this whole speech, and he seems so proud of himself, and so just, about what he thinks his enterprise is.
39:12 Ke: Yeah, so what happens... let's get into this. So, Sully meets Iris at the boxing arena. And he lies to her, as well, to get her to come there, which is a very strange thing. I guess it's because he doesn't think she likes him. **Ea: Yeah, she thinks--** So he's got to say something else, like "Why would she want to come and see me, I'm nobody." So he says it's about her brother or whatever. So, he's pleading with her to come and leave town.
39:34 Ky: It's so bizarre. It's like we barely know each other--
Ke: I was half-ready for him to pull out a ring and be like "Marry me!" *laughs*
Ea: But she does reveal that she does have feelings for him.
Ke: Yeah, she likes him.
Ky: For reasons.
Ke: So, he wants to leave clearly because he has murdered people. *weak laugh* **Ea: Three.** Three people. She's like I can't leave with you. I can't just upend my life. And then Mac shows up. Mac finds out that he's there from Krychek, the brother. **Ea: Mmhmm.** And [says] let's have a talk. And so, let's play this clip where they both kind of espouse their philosophical views on this situation and talk about it.
40:02 Sully: All you've got to do is look the other way. *pleads* I'm asking you this one thing.
Duncan: *wounded tone* No more favors, Sully.
Sully: *voice shakes* We go back a long way, Mac. That's got to count for something.
Duncan: Not anymore.
Sully: *angry-pained* You should have minded your own business.
Duncan: *also angry-pained* You made it my business when you sold me ten percent of Belcher.
Sully: *justified tone* He betrayed us. He cheated me.
Duncan: *sarcastic* Oh, and you kill everybody that cheats you.
Sully: *superior* Of course.
Duncan: Like Brock's manager? Is that how you made the thousand dollars?
Sully: *surprised-angry* I don't get you.
Duncan: *furious* What don't you get, Sully?
Sully: *wryly* We kill people all the time. It's what we do.
Duncan: *low anger* You really have no idea that what you do is wrong, do you?
Sully: *reasonably* No. It's only wrong because you say it is. What we have is a difference of opinion.
Duncan: It's gone way beyond that.
Sully: *resignedly* So now what? We try to kill each other?
Duncan: *pained determined* It's what we do... when we have to.
41:00 Ke: What do we think of this, guys?
Ea: I... don't know.
Ky: [It] would be complicated, if he hadn't killed Georgie.
Ea: Yeah.
Ke: Yeah. I agree. Cos that is definitely going, obviously too far.
Ky: He's just so obviously wrong. **Ke: Yes.** **Ea: Yeah.** That was JUST money. He's not using anybody, or playing with people, or blackmailing people, or committing a crime.
Ke: And presumably him killing Wilson, the boxing manager in 1890, was also... I would say wrong, because... aga--well, if the benchmark is "It's just money," **Ky: Yeah. Also--** --to kill someone over money is not the greatest thing.
Ea: No.
Ky: And there's no legal solution... At least there's no legal solution in either one of those two things.
Ke: Right. Especially in the 1890s. That was illegal boxing anyway, and illegal betting, so...
Ky: Yeah. But like if the situation... the situation here, it's like, if you were actually cheated and he just didn't have the right to leave, you could've--"So sue me!" You could've fucking sued Georgie for breaking whatever deal you had!
Ke: Right. **Ea: Right.**
Ky: There are regular remedies for that, **Both: Yeah.**-- and he just murders them because his feelings were hurt. **Ke: Right.** And, so he's just so utterly wrong on that. I DO think it's interesting, though, the question of what does the morality end up meaning, when part of your existence is killing other people, by design.
Ke: Yes. So, Coleman is not a good guy. **Ea: No.** And Sully even said in that, when they had that first confrontation, it wasn't about him stealing George. It was about that he uses people, and, and he's basically sex-trafficking in his fucking bar.
Ky: Yeah.
Ke: So, sometimes this show gets into weird murky territory, and we're going to see this a little in the next episode, too, where it's... **Ky: *gleefully* Yes!**--hold on! Mac gets to decide... Mac gets to decide what's right and wrong. And Mac is just right.
Ea: Frequently takes the moral high ground and just decides what's right and what's wrong.
42:46 Ky: Yeah. There's no question we're supposed to be onboard with him. The show's never "But by the way, Mac might be wrong." *****always, I think the show's always endorsing what he's doing.
Ke: But as I was watching this, I'm feeling a little uncomfortable, because Sully brings up good points. And if we take away him killing George: Sully killed two people that were like sex traffickers, and granted--I don't--I don't endorse killing anybody, ever, but Mac has done similar things.
Ea: But--
Ky: When he decides he's going to basically break Canaan's back?
Ke: Yeah!
Ea: Yeah, but Sully is probably lying about the real reasons why he killed--**Ke: That could be!**--Bulk and Skull.
Ke: Yeah, that's all--
Ea: He killed them out of jealousy. He didn't kill them because they're bad people. That's my reading of it.
Ke: Interesting.
Ky: That's probably fair. That's another good wrinkle to bear in mind.
Ea: Who knows how many other people Sully has killed that have wronged him, or whatever? This is a pattern he's established with Mac from hundreds of years ago.
Ke: Right. That's true. There's another interesting thing that gets brought up when they talk about: This is what we do, as being like some sort of moral pass on killing.
Ky: To some extent, I think it IS a legitimate slippery slope that at least needs to be addressed. Because it's like Mac, you are--he, ostensibly, again, carving out George--he murdered Bulk and Skull for being bad people. Mac, you are murdering him for being a bad person. **Ke: Yeah.** **Ea: Right.** You're passing a moral judgement on him that you've decided merits death. **Ke: Right, cos--** And that's what Sully did to these other guys. But because you're Immortals, it's okay?! **Ke: Yeah.** Mac's saying "Because we're both Immortals, I have the right--I'm justified in taking your head now."
Ke: Yeah. And-and-and... for some Immortals, as they play the Game, that's their... just the way they perceive the Game in general, it's like "I'm not good or bad, I just play the Game." And it's: "We're supposed to kill each other; no judgements, no sympathy, nothing. We just kill each other, that's what we do." Mac's kind of doing that here. It's: "Oh, well, we can just... that's how we do it."
Ea: Mac and Sully don't really seem like they're two guys that are actually playing the Game. Mac only, you know, cuts somebody's head off when he's forced. **Ke: Right.** Sully doesn't really seem to be active, either. So, maybe laws don't apply to Immortals in the same way. Like Mac can't really turn Sully over to the cops, can he?
Ke: Right. I guess he could try.
Ea: Yeah.
Ke: I mean, they can charge him just like anybody, with these crimes. I mean, I would say evidence for these crimes. *amused*
Ky: Oh, yeah! He's got all the motive in the world. We don't know much about the physical scene left behind, but... boy does he have an incentive to kill all the deads! 45:25 Ke: So, this brings up an interesting question that does get brought up in a couple seasons down the road, in the episode I think it's called "Methos"? Is it called Methos, or is it called something else? It's maybe not called Methos. But: they deal with a Methos-imposter! Methos, of course, we haven't met yet. But he is someone that preaches peace! Played by Ron Perlman, and his whole thing is "Why do we have to play the game? Just stop." Which is a really, I think it's a neat episode. And this kind of starts to bring up those questions. It's like: why do we have to kill each other, just cos it's a game? I don't know.
Ky: And why does Duncan get a moral pass on killing Sully? That's the part that bugs me.
Ea: Here's a weird thing I just thought of. So let's say Duncan turns Sully over to the cops. Sully is convicted of murder, and is sent to prison. How long do you think he'd get for killing three people-- **Ke: Life.** --if he was convicted of all three murders?
Ky: He'd get twenty. He'd probably get twenty-five years, but then the question would be: would they run the sentences consecutive for each murder.
Ea: Okay, so Sully's Immortal, he gets sent to prison for life, he doesn't age...
Ke: Well, if I was Sully I'd just kill myself, even before I went to real prison.
Ea: Right. And then he's... then he's escaped. So, for justice to be served, Mac has to take his head. In his mind, maybe. I don't know. Cos, like, otherwise Sully has to kill himself, and he escapes, or they're exposed, because Sully's in prison and never dies or ages.
Ky: Yes.
Ke: Well this brings up all sorts of Other interesting philosophical questions about, well, let's say Sully does go to prison for twenty-five years. And let's say no one notices that he--
Ky: Which isn't that surprising. Prisons have really high turnover rates...
Ke: Yeah, so maybe no one notices he ages.
Ky: It's just like a number on a piece of paper.
Ke: Uh, then at what point is... well, I mean the courts, at least, and by proxy the American public, has like... As a society, we have decided that these twenty-five years are an appropriate amount of time to pay for a certain crime. Like, if he goes to prison and serves his time for this, is that okay? When he gets out, it's like "Alright. You've served you time." He doesn't have to be forgiven by Mac, but there is a set punishment our society has deemed appropriate for him.
Ky: But that does happen, now. I mean, he's obviously an old-looking man. But lots of young men get convicted of really rough crimes that involve very long sentences, but if they're young, a lot of them get out. Somebody might do forty years, and be young enough to emerge.
Ke: That would be a counterpoint to what you brought up. Which I think is interesting. It's like, well the only form of justice, maybe, is to kill him because going to prison isn't enough for an Immortal.
Ea: Well that's taking--
Ke: But it's like, if he DID, does that count as enough? At what point is your crime paid for? Hm.
47:51 Ea: But Sully and Mac get down to it. **Ke: Yes--**
Ky: Yeah. So I hope Iris actually left.
Ea: Yeah!
Ke: Oh! Yeah!
Ky: Because they were like, "Yeah, I'll see you in a minute." I hope she didn't hang around to see!
Ea: Well, he's like "I'll see you back at the bar." ... Yeah, what if she didn't leave? *laughter*
48:06 Ke: Ah. So, this is a great fight, I think!
Ky: Pretty good. There's a lot of--and they do some fun stuff, like when... for a while Mac disarms Sully and so he grabs a chair! **Ea: Yeah!** **Ke: Yeah!** And they--
Ke: They fight with a chair! I love just them tearing through all those folded chairs! It's really messy, and sloppy...
Ky: *slyly* It's like Darius' death! **Ea: Mmhm!** *together* DARIUS!
Ky: Josh! *wheezelaugh*
48:26 Ke: So they end up, of course, fighting IN the boxing ring.
Ky: As soon as they showed the boxing ring, I'm like "It's happening!" And of course the whole time the fight is... slowly inching... it's way... to... the ring.
Ke: Ah, so, Duncan wins. And then this Quickening is interesting. Uh--**Ky: It's weird!** They do some diff--again, they always try to switch it up, so... some stuff is experimental, I guess. **Ky: Well, he like--** So, there's like a weird ghost like a Sully--
Ky: Another ghost!
Ea: Ghost writer!
Ky: Yeah! So, like, he grabs Sully's sword, and somehow the ghost is going through the swords toooo...
Ke: His mouth?
Ea: Well it's like he's deflecting the Quickening. **Ky: Yeah!** Because then when he releases the swords, the ghost flies away!
Ke: Yeah, I don't know.
Ea: Is he denying it, because it's his friend? I... I don't know.
Ky: Yeah. The Curse of the Return of the Sully's Ghost!
Ke: Yeah, so there's all this lighting, and then there's just this cloud floating above him, and we haven't really seen much like that before, but otherwise the fight is really cool. Oh, we didn't mention the spotlights are all moving around during this, which is... I don't know who turned them on, doesn’t matter. It's awesome.
Ky: The Quickening!
Ke: No, no! Before the Quickening! Like, while they're fighting, the spotlights are just kind of doing their thing. It looks really awesome. It's cool. Adds mooood. Yeah, all the lights are exploding during the Quickening. It's top-notch stuff. I like it!
Ky: As this winds down, Mac, as usual, likes to celebrate murdering a friend with some Kung fu. *Keith and Eamon agree* Some shirtless fu!
Ea: He's really upset after he receives this Quickening.
Ke: Well, in the Quickening, does he cr... I think he's crying, during the Quickening, isn't he? **Ea: I don't know...** He's laying on the mat and he has tears and he slams his fist down. I love when they do stuff like this. It's good.
Ky: Yeah. Though... he's just killed another one of his friends. Again.
50:02 Ke: So, what's our... what's our Quickening friend-count? So we've got Gabriel-*with Kyle*-the-Zone-Piton.
Ky: Oooh, Gabriel Zone Piton has an extra meaning, now! **Ea: Yes!** *laughter*
Ke: Ah, so, we've also got Mad Marcus, from See No Evil, too. We've got Quentin Barnes! What was his name? Michael!
Ky: Michael!
Ea; Billy! Michael Moore, yeah.
50:20 Ke: Michael Moore! ... And now we've got... Sully? Is there another one I'm not thinking of? I think we've got four friends he has killed.
Ea: Yeah, I think--
Ky: In, like, a year.
Ea: Yeah.
Ky: He's having a bad year.
Ke: Bad Year.
Ea: And he lost Darius, and he lost Tess.
Ke: Yup. This is not good.
Ky: This is not the year of the MacLeod.
Ke: No. *laughter*
Ky: But again, not all of them. Like, Quentin Barnes, and Marcus, I give a pass on. Because Marcus is straight up mentally ill and trying to kill him. **Right.** **Yeah.** Same with Michael Moore, and Moore's asking him to kill him--**Right.**--when he does it, but the other two, it's like--
Ke: Well the Gabriel Piton, he was killing those girls!
Ky: Yeah. The other two he passed a moral judgement on. **Ke: Right. Okay.**--is why he killed them. The other two, the circumstances were kind of thrust on him. The other two really didn't want to fight him, but he had decided, "No, I have chosen." I'm not saying it's a wrong judgement, but he's made a de--**Ke: But he's made it.** --he's made a decision that they deserve to die. And he's executed them. And that's interesting. We definitely see Mac standing in moral judgement of a looot of people in this show, **Ke: Right.** and it's kind of interesting to see them all stack up.
Ea: I mean, Sully's not wrong, saying "It's wrong because YOU say it's wrong." **Ke: Right.** I mean, I guess, but Sully is a bad guy who murdered people. *coughlaugh*
Ke: But uh, the problem is that sometimes Duncan chooses when he says stuff is wrong and when he do--like, it's like it's solely up to him. I think that's the bigger problem.
Ky: Yeah, and like Mac is always trying to convince other people to walk away. **Ke: Right.** Other people are always supposed to walk away, but then, when somebody else disappoints him, he has to step up and kill them.
Ke: And as you said, it's the same judgement that Sully used on Coleman, **Ky: Yeah.** that Mac is using on Sully.
Ky: That... I really think that's why they killed Georgie.
Ke: That makes a lot of sense.
Ky: I think this conversation was, like... I don't know. It would have been too troubling.
Ke: And so... it even becomes a little more troubling, because, well at the end of this episode, Iris visits Mac in the dojo, and she [asks] "Oh, what happened to Sully?" and it's "Oh, he left or whatever." "Think I'll ever see him again?" "I doubt it." She asks: "Do you think he killed those guys?" **Ky: Bulk and Skull?** Yeah, and Mac is like: "I don't know; what do you think? It matters what you think." And she [says] "I don't think he did. He's a good guy." And he's like: that's what matters.
Ky: It's like it matters that you think that.
Ke: Right. And this is as-as-another one of those weird lying things. He lied to Tommy's mom, he lied to--
Ky: Mommy Bannen, and this back-to-back. They had illusions about the bad people that they cared about. **both: Yeah.**
Ke: And he's fine to be like, you have those illusions. But yeah, I mean--
Ky: It's a little bit cold-blooded, I think.
Ke: It is, and it's also just ups--like, you know, I mean we can talk about the justice system, and what does justice mean, like righting the wro--or like making other people feel righted, I suppose, by a wrong. And it's like nobody in Coleman's life felt wronged. So we seemed to see. You know what I mean? Like, everybody that worked for him; all these other people are like "No, I'm glad he's dead." No one seems to be mourning the loss of Coleman. And, even with that, Duncan is like: "Nope, wrong." Again, that's part of that Georgie-thing. It's like: We need to do something really wrong. But yeah, I think it's interesting that--
Ky: It had to be something that no one would condone.
Ke: Yeah. Cos it doesn't seem like that interaction really weighs on Duncan, much. We don't get to see any sort of... him pondering this problem, like hey, everybody at the bar thinks what Sully did is great!
Ea: No Duncan's pretty pissed at Sully. He's like "We're gonna settle this later." I don't think Duncan was just gonna let that go.
Ky: The thing that's interesting is that he goes to confirm his story. He's like... it matters to him whether or not Sully's justification--presented justification is true. If Mac didn't care, he wouldn't have needed to ask those questions. If he was going to be a 100% convinced that he and Sully were gonna come to blows, why investigate the truth of that. **Ke: Yeah.** Unless, like some part of him thought that maybe, if true, some justification might have existed. I dunno.
Ea: Well, it's weird the next episode, this situation comes up again, and Mac takes the opposite position. **Ke:*laughs* Right!** Which we can talk about--
Ky: We can talk about that next time.
Ke: We will. Oh, we will!
54:14 🎶Fighting Immortals will give you a Mac-attack-ak-ak-ak-ak-ak, you oughta know by now... 🎶You oughta know by now... 🎶
Ke: Uh, guys. We've learned some lessons from Duncan Macleod. I know one lesson I'VE learned! Bros before Hos! Because he, like, legitimately gives Sully that speech when he [says] "Hey man, George is like really needing ya. You gotta chill out with Iris, like, bros before hos!" **Ea: Yeah!** The Gospel of Mac!
Ky: Yeah. *singsong* What I learned from Mac: *normal* It's wrong to kill bad people, unless those bad people killed other bad people. Then it's okay to kill those bad people.
54:45 Mac: (((We should do this more often!)))
Ky: Also, we didn't talk about the fact that, after this kind of cold-blooded conversation where he lets Iris continue believing that Sully's a great guy, he dismisses her with Kung fu. **Ke: Yeah!** He's like, "Okay, bye!" PUNCH PUNCH PUNCH!
Ke:? Syaa! Syaa, syaaaa! *laughter*
Ky: It's amazing.
Ke: Okay, why don't we hear a bit from David Abramowitz on the episode The Fighter!
55:08 David Abramowitz: I remember The Fighter, because, um... we transformed the hockey arena of the Vancouver Canucks into a prize-fighter ring. The hockey people were worried that we wouldn't be able to put it back together again in time. And I remember thinking about how fortunate we were, having Bruce Weitz as our guest star. He'd just finished doing Hill Street Blues, and was a great character. And he played a great character for us. The Fighter was a takeoff on the old Cyrano story, um, where a character is in love with a beautiful young woman, and can't find the words to speak to her and speak of his love. So we had Phil Akin, who played Charlie DeSalvo, talk to Bruce Weitz, who played the fight manager who was in love with the young girl... to watch the two of them together, they aren't exactly the slickest characters in the world. Um, it was like the blind leading the blind. The bare-knuckle fighting that we had was particularly brutal, and we were worried about it, because some of our overseas markets weren't into having violence at the time. In fact, this episode got us into a lot of trouble, and we were known for a short period of time as... maybe the most violent show on television. And the reason for that was the show is about boxing. And what they did was: the counted each of the punches. And because there were so many punches, cos we were doing a boxing show, we became the violentest show on television; later surpassed by any number of shows after that. But we had one small moment of ignominious fame.
56:31 Ke: *amused* In a show where people's heads are removed from their bodies! It's like, "This is getting pretty violent, guys. With the--this punching? In a ring, with a referee?"
Ea: Yeah. That's--kind of nuts.
Ke: Ah, so, let's talk about the Watcher Chronicles for this episode!
Ea: Sully!
Ke: "Thomas Sullivan was born in 1743 in Kilkenny, Ireland. His first death was 1788. And he was shot for failing to take a dive in a prize-fight." So Sully used to be a boxer himself. "Tommy Sullivan was a fighter all his life. As a scrappy little urchin, his--" *Keith laughs* **Ky: NICE!** "In his naver-na-uh, native Kilkenny, uh, he started fighting the other kids for food, and then for pennies, in the local public houses. It wasn't too long before he became the Kilkenny champion, and started taking on challengers from surrounding counties. His bare-knuckle career in Ireland came crashing to an end, when his honor wouldn't allow him to take a dive against Dublin champ Ian McGinnis and he was shot dead by the promotor who arranged the bout! After training with his first Immortal teacher, Rory Colhoun, Sully took a minute to kill the promoter *wheezelaugh* who killed him, before setting off to America." Wow. Not good. **Ea: Yeah.** Well, like he took a minute; "Yeah, I'll take a minute and--"
Ea: This IS his murder.
57:44 Ky: Yeah, well, also, he took a minute to kill the man who murdered him. **Ea: Yeah.**
Ke: This is very true. "Sully always had a very black-and-white view of the world. Win-lose, good-bad, right-wrong, no allowance for gray areas. By this criteria, he never killed anyone who didn't deserve to be killed. Poor Sully never could understand that real life was never as simple as life in the squared circle."
Ky: That doesn't strike me as exactly accurate.
Ke: No. This is not the picture I think we get painted of Sully in this episode.
Ky: Like, I agree he's absolutely convinced that he did the right thing, but I don't think that means that everything's black and white.
Ke: Right.
Ea: He's not a follower of Ayn Rand, here. *laughter*
Ke: I don't get that reference, though I'm all about ragging on Ayn Rand. *laughter* I'm onboard with the enterprise.
Ke: So, Duncan has a Chronicle-entry for this, too, which--he's in San Francisco, it says "Occupation: Businessman." Which is good! *laugh* What? What does that mean? And then it says: "That MacLeod's a real sucker for a sob-story!" *laughter* Uh, he says: "Tommy Sullivan, the little Irish boxer, comes up to him with a story about how he's too small to fight the champ, but he really needs the money, and suddenly MacLeod's gonna be fighting Joe Brock. JOE BROCK!"-exclamation point. Uh, "They say the guy can stop a locomotive with one punch. I know Brock can't kill MacLeod, but even so, it's gotta hurt! Sullivan's gonna owe him BIG for this one! MacLeod's gonna fall for some sob-story one day, and lose his head because of it." Say, this doesn't seem like a sob-story, either. These are unaccur--inaccurate chronicles! **Ea: Yeah.**
Ky: Yeah, he was off--he was offered Five-hundred bucks!
Ke: Yeah, this was a business proposition that he could've turned down! This--I dunno. This is not a sob-story.
Ky: But he didn't because the guy punched him in the face and it made him upset. **Ea: Yeah!** *laugh* **Ke: Right! Hahahah!** So what are our thoughts on this episode, all-in-all.
Ke: This might be my favorite episode this season. I legitimately love this episode. No joke. I... hah I... I think the script is great; I like that it's really humorous, it's a fun episode. I love this sort of like Hitch-element to it. *faux distress* "I don't know how to be good with the girls!" I think it works pretty well. I like that the story in the past does seem to mirror a lot of stuff that's happening in the present, like about Duncan making decisions about wanting to be a fighter, how much percent he gets, and then we cut to decisions in the present about those same sort of things; like do you wanna buy in, 10% to this fighter? Do you wanna fight Brock in the past? These sort of things get mirrored really well. I think it asks pretty deep moral questions, and actually presents them in a... like... other than Mac at the... like... Mac is only kind of presented as, I think, a good person at the end. Moreso than he should be, I think. But...
Ky: I think, just the way it's presented, and the way the show shoots him, and the way his victory happens, I think we're supposed to be a hundred percent on board with Mac.
Ke: I think we're supposed to be--
Ky: And again, because of the Georgie-thing, I do think he's correct.
Ke: Yeeeah, but I like that this is asking some pretty good questions, and Sully actually even has some really good retorts to Mac. That's another thing this show can sometimes do, is they set up a straw man in the villain. "Oh, you shouldn't do this because of this!" and then they're like, you know... they don't really have any sort of good comebacks, and Sully [says] "No, this is your opinion. We kill all the time." Sully actually presents a pretty good argument, I think, to Mac.
1:00:50 Ke: Anyway, I think this show is well-shot. I think the flashbacks are amazing-looking. Like, this fucking episode, this is great! Sorry. I'm babbling about it. I love this episode!
Ea: I thought it was pretty good. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's my favorite, but--
Ke: Edited out! Fuck you, Eamon! *laughter*
Ea: The Sully-being-bad-with-girls, thing, followed by him getting his head chopped off... That's a weird tonal thing, where I'm like: He's half this comedic figure--**Ke: Yeah.**--and then, we're supposed to [say] "Oh, you know, Sully, he has a tough time talking to the ladies," and then his head is brutally chopped off by Mac in the final fight, and I'm like--
Ke: I will give you that.
Ky: That, that is my biggest problem with it, too, there's some weird incongruity between the com--some of the constituent parts of this episode.
Ke: Yeah. Cos it is very funny.
Ky: Yeah. Like the Bad-with-ladies thing... concealing being... fundamentally a stone-cold killer. It's... nothing about it makes it seem like he's that character. **Ke: Right.** And it's a weird roller-coaster of emotion to be on.
Ea: Also, when--
Ky: Rollercoaster of tone. Tonal-coaster. **Ke: *laughs* Tonal-coaster!**
Ea: Tonal-coaster. Also, what happens if Iris wrongs Sully in some way? Or if he perceives her to be disloyal? Does he kill her?
Ke: I think... maybe, the way this episode is set up, he do--like, I think that's maybe the implication, and why Mac thinks he has to k--like, there's a pattern of Sully turning against people that he thinks wrongs him. **Ea: Right.** Especially cos at the end it's like "Oh, you just... if someone cheats you, you kill 'im?" It's like "Yup!" Like he's really matter-of-fact about it. **Ea: Yeah.** So, I think that's kind of the reason why, is that if you cross Sully in some way--
Ky: Yeah, he's gonna cross you off.
Ea: I do like the flashbacks, and the fight at the end is awesome, **Ke: Yeah.** so there's a lot of good stuff in this.
1:02:28 Ke: Hands down.
Ky: It's definitely in the top 50% of the season. **Ea: Yeah.** I--the--the tonal issues really kind of grind my gears a little bit, and I wish they'd let it be a bit more complicated. **Ke: Mmhm!** Cos, again, the Georgie-thing... I feel like it at least makes it pretty cut-and-dry. **Ke: Yeah.** I think the fact that he just randomly murders his ostensibly friend, after hugging it out, that's problematic. **Ke: Yeah.** And it does, then, create the appearance that yeah, he'll just kill anybody. **Ke: Mmhm.** Like anyone. It doesn't matter. **Ke: Right.** Even someone just legitimately pursuing their own self-interest cos by the way, Sully, you're not a great boxing manager! **Ke: *amused* Yeah.** Cos you blow it off to roleplay with Charlie! *laughs* **Ea: Yeah! Hahah.**
Ke: I do get a--this show does get a lot of credit from me for--
Ky: He's a Level 4 Fighter!
Ke: Oh boy.
Ky: I mean, you get a bonus feat at 4th Level!
*snickers*
1:03:14 Ke: Uhh. I think the show does do a good job of this--presenting this gray area in an early-90s Saturday afternoon action-adventure show. We're again, like, we have the benefit of living in 2016, hah.
Ky: They had the benefit of Star Trek: The Next Generation, while this is going on, though. So...
Ke: That's true!
Ky: So, the bar... the bar existed.
Ke: There was a bar, yeah.
Ky: They're, what? Season Five, in 1994? **Ke: Maybe.** TNG, they are... they've more than hit their stride in that show, by the time they're doing this, so it's not like this is unprecedented.
Ke: No, not unprecedented, but I think this is a different time in TV, where these sort of stories are not told in this way. The hero's not presented--I mean, like, we can watch Game of Thrones, in which... in like... I don't know. Everyone's nuts about that show. And it's like: Who's the good g--everybody's the bad guy. I mean, you know, it's not that black and white. It's everybody's kind of good sometimes, kind of bad other times. I think people are kind of getting more accustomed to liking the characters and getting invested in that sort of story-telling, now, than maybe they used to be, then? Just a guess, I don't know. I mean, I watched this when it was kind of on, that's when, one of the things that made the show really special, that it started to delve into this sort of stuff. Food for thought.
1:04:21 So, uh, question of the week, everybody! Do you think Sully deserved to die... in this episode? And do you think--yeah, just write us. We're going to have some long e-mails maybe about this. What are the moral implications of what happened at the end of this episode? Who's right, who's wrong? And why?
Ky: Yeah. And do we wanna give the caveat about Georgie? Or not?
Ke: Yeah. Let's say Georgie didn't die.
Ky: Paul Phoenix rises from the ashes, and he's still alive! Does Sully still deserve to die?
Ke: Yeah. Write us in. And the important thing is the why.
Ky: I'm just gonna write in a one-word answer. Yes.
Ke: Yes/No.
Kyle: Derp!
Ke: Yes, colon, he was a bad guy. HAH! Alright, thanks everybody for listening to this week's episode. Join us next week. I've been one of your re-watchers! I'm Keith!
Ky: This is Kyle!
Ea: This is Eamon!
*****Someone: Bye!
1:05:17 Ky: It also helps that he was eating a giant sandwich. **Ke: Yeah!** Like Shaggy.
*****Ke: Yeah, this is very cartoonish. Like, he's --hits his head.
Ea: Then he jumped in his arms, and he holds him!
Ke: Sully stands be--
Ky: Should that be our question of the week? Was she giving him a blammer-jammer during that scene?
Ea: Yes.
Ke: Yes.
Ea: That's the question. *laughter*